PROSECUTORS ASSOCIATION OF NEW JERSEY. THE COURT: MAY WE PLEASE HAVE APPEARANCES
OF COUNSEL. MS. THOMPSON: GOOD MORNING, KAREN THOMPSON FOR THE ACLU, NEW
JERSEY. MR. GRIFFIN: C J GRIFFIN, PASHMAN STEIN, LIB TEAR YANSZ FOR TRARNSZ
PARENT GOVERNMENT AND ASSOCIATION OF CRIMINAL DEFENSE LAWYERS OF NEW JERSEY. MR.
GRAMICCIONI: GOOD MORNING YOUR HONOR, CHRISTOPHER GRAMICCIONI, KINGSTON COVENTRY, POL
THOMAS H PROL. THE COURT: GOOD MORNING. WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A BREAK AROUND
1230 {@TIME}. I DOUBT WE'RE GOING TO COMPLETE THE ARGUMENT BUT WHO KNOWS. MS.
THOMPSON. MS. THOMPSON: IS IT POSSIBLE TO HAVE A BOLTS OF WATER?
�� YES. MS. THOMPSON: IF I COULD HAVE A FEW MNTSDZ FOR REBUTTAL. ��
MS. THOMPSON: GOOD MORNING AND MAY IT PLEASE THE COURT, THERE'S A SINGLE ISSUE
BEFORE THE COURT TODAY IN THIS CASE AND THAT IS WHETHER THE COUNTY PROSECUTOR'S ASSOCIATION
OF NEW JERSEY IS IN FACT A PUBLIC AGENCY THAT IS SUBJECT TO THE OPEN PUBLIC RECORDS ACT.
WE BELIEVE THAT IT IS AND WE'RE ASKING THE COURT TO REVERSE THE FINDINGS, THE DECISIONS
OF THE LOWER COURT TO REAFFIRM AND CLARIFY THE MEANING OF PUBLIC AGENCY PURSUANT TO THIS
COURT'S PRIOR PRECEDENT AND TO DIRECT THE COUNTY PROSECUTOR'S ASSOCIATION OF NEW JERSEY
TO RESPOND TO OUR 2019 OPRA REQUEST. I WILL FIRST TAKE THE ISSUE WHETHER C
PANJ IS A PUBLIC AGENCY AND FINDING IT WAS NOT. FIRST AND FOREMOST I THINK IT'S
IMPORTANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE ROLE THAT CPANJ DOES PLAY IN THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM
OF OF NEW JERSEY. IT IS VITAL AND WE APREESHTD THE EXPERIENCE AND KNOWLEDGE THAT CPANJ
BRINGS TO THE PROCESS. WE KNOW THAT THEY HAVE PROVIDED VERY IMPORTANT SUPPORT TO THIS
COURT TO THE OFFICE OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL. THE Y OF CPANJ IS-WHICH IS THAT THEY USE
PUBLIC RESOURCES TO BE WHO THEY ARE AND WITH PUBLIC RESOURCES COMES PUBLIC SCRUTINY AND
WE ARE ASKING THIS COURT TO TREAT CPANJ AS THE PUBLIC AGENCY IT IS. WHEN YOU
LOOK AT C P N.J.'S STRUCTURE, THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT IT IS A PUBLIC AGENCY. IT WAS
COMPLETELY CREATED BY STATE APPOINTED COUNTY PROSECUTORS AND I QUOTE A MAY 2020 LETTER
TO THE SUPREME COURT WORKING GROUP REGARDING VIRTUAL GRAND JURIES, CPANJ IS AN
ORGANIZATION REPRESENTING THE INTEREST OF THE TWUNTD COUNTY PROSECUTOR AND THEIR OFFICES.
THEY ARE ALSO CONTROLLED COMPLETELY BY APPOINTED STATE OFFICIALS, THE COUNT PROSECUTORS
AND THEIR OFFICES. WE KNOW THAT EVEN IF IF YOU LOOK AT THEIR LETTERHEAD, EVERY SINGLE
INDIVIDUAL FROM THE PRESIDENT TO THE SECOND IS A COUNTY PROSECUTOR. ALL THE VOLUNTEERS
BELONG TO THE COUNTY PROSECUTOR OFFICES. THERE'S NO OUTSIDE BETWEEN WHAT THE COUNTY
PROSECUTORS DO, WHO THEY ARE CONTROLLED BY, AND THE COUNTY PROSECUTORS OFFICE AND THE COUNTY
PROSECUTORS THEMSELVES BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY AND IT'S TELLING THAT BOTH THE TRIAL DIVISION
AND THE APPELLATE DIVISION LEAPFROGGEDED OVER THIS ISSUE IS THAT THE COUNTY PROSECUTORS
ARE COMPLETELY DON'T EVENT ON THE RESOURCES OF OF THE STATE TO DO THEIR BUSINESS AND TO DO
THEIR WORK. THEY HAVE SENT ASSISTANT PROSECUTORS TO MAKE THE ARGUMENTS IN THIS CASE, OVERALL
ARGUMENTS DURING BUSINESS HOURS. THEY HAVE SENT ASSISTANT PROSECUTORS TO WRITE THE BRIEFING
IN THIS CASE. ALL OF THE COMMUNICATIONS IN THIS CASE HAVE BEEN DONE WITH GOVERNMENT E-MAILS.
THEY HAVE SAID THEMSELVES THEY DO NOT HAVE A PHYSICAL OFFICE FROM WHICH THEY OPERATE SO
WE CAN INFER THAT THE WORK THAT THEY ARE DOING IS BEING DONE ON STATE LAPTOPS, USING STATE
XEROX MACHINES. ALL OF THE RESOURCE TLAZ THEY NEED, AGAIN, TO DO THEIR BUSINESS ARE COMING
FROM THE STATE. DUES FOR THE COUNTY PROSECUTOR'S ASSOCIATION ARE PAID FOR BY THE STATE
AND MS. GRIFFIN I AM SURE GOING TO ADDRESS WITH A LITTLE BIT MORE DETAIL HOW SOME OF THIS
FUNDING FOR CPANJ EXISTENCE IS COMING AGAIN THROUGH TAX PAYER FUNDS THROUGH GOVERNMENT
FUNDS AND THERE IS SOMETHING THAT WAS LAID OUT VERY CLEARLY IN FAIR SHARE WHERE THE POOLING
OF FINANCIAL CONTRIBUTIONS AND RESOURCES DO FOR ALL WHAT CANNOT DO FOR 1, THAT IS WHAT
THE VERY FOUNDATIONAL FACTORS IN FINDING AN AGENCY TO BE A PUBLIC AGENCY. ��,
COUNSEL, LOOKING AT THE SPECIFIC LANGUAGE IN THE STATUTE, CAN YOU TELL US WHICH IN THE
MANY CLAUSES CONTAINED YOU ARE RELYING ON. MS. THOMPSON: YES, I BELIEVE C
PANJ IS A. �� YOU DESCRIBED THE PROSECUTORS EARLIER AS A POINTED STATE
OFFICIALS QUITE CORRECTLY. HOW ARE THEY A COMBINATION OF POLITICAL SUBDIVISIONS.
MS. THOMPSON: I THINK, IT'S A LITTLE BIT ELASTIC IN THE SENSE THAT POLITICAL
SUBDIVISION IS NOT DEFINED IN OPRA AND QUITE FRANKLY IN THE RESEARCH FOR PREPARING FOR
THIS IT'S NOT REALLY WELL DEFINED ANYWHERE AND SO I I THINK WHEN WE THINK ABOUT WHAT A
POLITICAL SUBDIVISION IS USING THE LANGUAGE OF CITY OF JERSEY V MARTIN IT'S AN AGENCY
CREATED FOR THE EXERCISE WITHIN THE PRESCRIBED LIMITS OF THE GOVERNMENTAL FUNCTIONS AND
POWERS OF THE STATE. A POLITICAL SUBDIVISION AS DEFINED BY BLACKS LAW DINGS
RY IS A DIVISION OF THE STATE THAT EXISTS PRIMARILY TO DISCHARGE SOME FUNCTION OF LOCAL
GOVERNMENT. JUSTICE PATTERSON: : SO A COUNTY IS A POLITICAL SUBDIVISION.
MS. THOMPSON: YES. JUSTICE PATTERSON: : AND YOUR ARGUMENT IS
THAT THE COUNTY CREATES, THAT THE PROSECUTORS ARE. MS. THOMPSON: THEY ARE
NOT CREATED BY THE COUNTY. JUSTICE PATTERSON: : NOT CREATE BY THE COUNTY.
MS. THOMPSON: YES. JUSTICE PATTERSON: : SO WHY ARE THEY, AND I
KNOW YOU'RE SAYING IT'S ELASTIC BUT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A STATUTE TRI DEFINITION. WHY
ISN'T THE CPA N.J. AN INSTRUMENT ALTD OF AN INSTRUMENT ALTD ANALOGOUS TO THE VOLUNTEER
FIRE DEPARTMENT IN VERRY FIRE DISTRICT NUMBER 1. MS. THOMPSON: BECAUSE IN
VERRY YOU HAVE A HAT THAT IS FUNCTIONING AS THE POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THE STATE MUCH
THE FRANKLIN FIRE DIVISION IS THEN CREATED BY THE MUNICIPALITY. JUSTICE PATTERSON:
: SO WE'RE THAT FAR IN THE VERRY CASE SO THEY ARE IN OPRA, THE FIRE DISTRICT IS IN OPRA
BECAUSE IT'S AN INSTRUMENTALITY CREATED BY A POLITICAL SUBDIVISION. MS.
THOMPSON: EXACTLY. JUSTICE PATTERSON: : BUT WHEN WE GET TO THE NEXT LEVEL
IT'S THE INSTRUMENTALITY IT'S THE AND THAT PUTS IT OUT OF OPRA. MS. THOMPSON:
RIGHT. JUSTICE PATTERSON: : AND I WOULD RESPECTFULLY SUGGEST TO YOU THAT
IN VERRY WHICH IS A CASE DECIDED ABOUT 6 YEARS AGO, I WAS ON THAT CASE, THE COURT WASN'T
SAYING LET'S LOOK AT IT KIND OF IN AN ELASTIC SORT OF WAY AND SAY THAT EVERYBODY'S KIND
OF IN THE SAME MIX. THE COURT LOOKED AT IT IN A VERY TECHNICAL WAY BECAUSE THIS IS WHAT
THE LEGISLATURE HAS TOLD US TO DO SO WHAT IS THE POLITICAL SUBDIVISION THAT CREATED C
PANJ. MS. THOMPSON: THE POLITICAL SUBDIVISION IS THAT THE CONSTITUTION CREATED
THE -- JUSTICE PATTERSON: : I'M ASKING FOR THE THE NOUN. NOT THE ORIGIN AND
YOU'RE A TERRIFIC ADVOCATE AND I UNDERSTAND WHY YOU'RE MAKING THESE ARGUMENTS BUT WHAT
-- IDENTIFY FOR US THE POLITICAL SUBDIVISION THAT CREATED THE CPA N.J. MS. THOMPSON:
I THINK MY ARGUMENT IS THAT CPANJ ITS THE POLITICAL SUBDIVISION. I'M NOT TRYING TO
DODGE. JUSTICE PATTERSON: : I'M SORRY TO BE SHAKING MY HEAD I RESPECTFULLY
WOULD SUGGEST TO YOU THAT THE LEGISLATURE DOES NOT VIEW POLITICAL SUBDIVISION TO BE ANYTHING
OUT THERE THAT HAS AN INFLUENCE OF POLITICSES. IT IS A TECHNICAL TERM. MS. THOMPSON:
IT IS A TECHNICAL TERM BUT THE THE TERMS SAYS THAT IT IS ABOUT THE STATE'S POWER BEING
GIVEN TO -- JUSTICE PATTERSON: : RESPECTFULLY THERE'S MUCH MORE TO IT. THE
STATE GIVES POWER TO ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE AND ENTITIES AND AGENCIES AND NONPROFITS AND
IT DOES ALL SORT OF THIPGSZ TO PROVIDE RESOURCES TO PEOPLE AND ENTITIES IN OUR WONDERFUL
STATE STATE. BUT THEY DON'T BECOME SUBDIVISIONS BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN GIVEN SOMETHING
FROM THE STATE. RESPECTFULLY. SO WLAS THE POLITICAL SUBDIVISION HERE THAT WE CAN
RECOGNIZE TO BE IN THIS DEFINITE SNIGSZ. MS. THOMPSON: WELL, I THINK THE POLITICAL
-- CPANJ OCCUPIES THAT SPACE BECAUSE. JUSTICE SOLOMON: WHAT IS THE ENABLE
RG STATUTE FOR CPANJ. THERE'S FOR FIREMEN'S ASSOCIATION, THERE IS FOR LEAGUE OF
MUNICIPALITIES. WHAT IS THE ENABLING STATUTE THAT THE LEGISLATURE PASSED THAT ESSENTIALLY
CPANJ OPERATES UNDER THAT MAKES IT A POLITICAL SUBDIVISION. MS. THOMPSON:
THERE IS NO STATUTE BUT THAT IS NOT A REQUIREMENT UNDER OPRA. JUSTICE SOLOMON:
I DIDN'T SAY IT WAS A RERIERMENTD UNDER OPRA BUT YOU'RE REFERRING TO A POLITICAL SUBDIVISION.
GETTING BACK TO WHAT JUSZ PHYSICAL PATERSON JUST SAID. THEY DON'T APPEAR OUT OF THE AIR.
IN THE CASE OF THE FIREMEN ASSOCIATION THEY ARE ENABLING THAT LEAD TO THEM AND THAT'S
KIND OF HOW THEY ARE BROUGHT UNDER THAT RUBRIC BUT OF COURSE WITHIN CERTAIN FIRE DISSTRIKTSZ
THEY ARE NOT POLITICAL SUBDIVISIONS. THEY ARE SEPARATE ENTITIES. WHAT IS THE ENABLING
STATUTE HERE BECAUSE I DON'T THINK THERE'S EVER BEEN AN ASSOCIATION LIKE THIS THAT'S EVER
BEEN CONSIDERED A POLITICAL SUBDIVISION WITHOUT SOME ENABLING STATUTE. MS.
THOMPSON: I THINK THIS IS THE KIND OF FRAUGHT PLACE THAT THIS ARGUMENT IN THIS CASE CENTERS
AROUND BECAUSE CPANJ DOES NOT SIT COMFORTABLY WITHIN THAT RUBRIC. JUSTICE
PATTERSON: : AND YOU SAY IT'S FRAUGHT. IN VERRY, YOU KNOW, THE AURMENTD HAD 2 DIFFERENT
RESULTS FOR 2 DIFFERENT ENTITIES BECAUSE 1 OF THEM FIT WITHIN THE DESCRIPTION AND 1 DID
NOT AND IT'S, RESPECTFULLY I DON'T THINK IT'S A FRAUGHT SITUATION. OUR JOB IS NOT TO DECIDE
WHETHER THERE'S GOOD POLICY OR WHETHER THERE SHOULD BE A BROAD ENNING OF THE DESCRIPTION.
OUR JOB IS TO FIGURE OUT IS IT IN THE DESCRIPTION AS PROVIDED. WOULD YOU AGREE WITH ME
THAT TECHNICALLY CPANJ IS NOT A POLITICAL SUBDIVISION. MS. THOMPSON: I
DON'T BECAUSE I DO BELIEVE THAT THE POLITICAL SUBDIVISION QUESTION CANNOT BE DIVORCED FROM
THE EXISTENCE OF THE COUNTY PROSECUTORS OFFICE AND THE COUNTY PROSECUTORS. THERE IS NO
DAYLIGHT BETWEEN WHAT CPANJ IS DOING AND WHAT THE COUNTY PROSECUTOR'S OFFICE AND THE COUNTY
PROSECUTORS ARE. IF THERE WAS SOME SORT OF DIFFERENT FUNCTION, IF THERE WAS LEGISLATIVE
IMPERATIVE IN THE SENSE THAT LEGISLATURE SAID PLEASE CREATE THIS ORGANIZATION, THAT WOULD
BE A DIFFERENT QUESTION BUT THERE'S LIT RAHLY -- THE OVERLAP IS COMPLETE BETWEEN CPANJ
AND THE OFFICES. �� I WANT TO GO BACK TO THE STATUTE TRI LANGUAGE. YOU TOLD
US YOU WERE RELYING ON INSTRUMENT TALT OF A COMBINATION OF POLITICAL SUBDIVISIONS.
MS. THOMPSON: YES. �� THAT MEANS THAT CPANJ IS THE INSTRUMENTALITY.
MS. THOMPSON: YES. �� OF THE POLITICAL SUBDIVISIONS AND THE POLITICAL SUBDIVISIONS
THEN ARE THE COUNT PROSECUTORS. YOU'VE JUST BEEN TELLING US THAT CPANJ IS THE POLITICAL
SUBDIVISION. IF WE STICK TO THE PLAIN LANGUAGE OF THE STATUTE. MS. THOMPSON:
YES. �� WHAT IS CPANJ. MS. THOMPSON: I'M VOIR. THAT IS NOT WHAT I
INTENDED BECAUSE CPANJ IS THE INSTRUMENTALITY. �� SO THEN YOU HAVE TO EXPLAIN
HOW A STATE OFFICIAL IS A POLITICAL SUBDIVISION. MS. THOMPSON: BECAUSE THE
POLITICAL SUBDIVISION HERE IS A CONSTITUTIONAL POSITION THAT IS APPOINTED BY THE THE
GOVERNOR AND IS NOT JUST LIMITED TO THE WORK AND THE EXISTENCE OF THE COUNTIES. AS WE
DISCUSSED IN OUR BRIEF, THERE'S NOT EVEN A DIRECT LINE BETWEEN THE WORK THAT THE COUNTY
PRARPS DO AND THE OFFICES AND SIMPLY TO THE COUNT POSITION. THEY OCCUPY THIS DIFFERENT
SPACE THAT IS KIND OF OF BETWEEN AND BE TWIKTS THE STATE AND THE COUNTY. SO IF PU THINK
THE AND THE THE CROWN IN U.K. THE CROWN IS KING CHARLES BUT THE IDEA OF THE MONARCHY IS
BROADER THAN THAT. THAT'S PROBABLY NOT THE BEST ANALOGY WHEN TALKING. JUSTICE
PATTERSON: : I'M A BIG FAN OF THE CROWN BUT I WOULD RESFEKTDFULLY SAY THAT'S NOT THE BEST
FIT HERE BUT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A POLITICAL SUBDIVISION HAS A TECHNICAL. IT'S NOT
OFFICIALS. IT'S NOT CONSTITUTIONAL OFFICERS. IT'S NOT -- THE LEGISLATURE COULD HAVE DONE
ALL THAT, COULD HAVE MELDED THOSE AND BROAD ENDED THOSE DESCRIPTION ORZ IT IT COULD BROADEN
OPRA BUT DO YOU AGREE WITH ME WE HAVE, THE ISSUE BEFORE US IS, AND YOU KNOW I THINK WHAT
YOU ARE SAYING IT IS AN INSTRUMENTAL OF POLITICAL SUBDIVISIONS, DOES YOUR AURMENTD THEN
FAIL IF WE DON'T FIND THE COUNTY PROSECUTORS ARE POLITICAL SUBDIVISIONS. MS.
THOMPSON: NO, IT DOESN'T BECAUSE THERE'S STILL THE QUESTION OF WHAT OPRA'S INTENDED TO
DO. JUSTICE PATTERSON: : BUT LET ME PAUSE YOU THERE BECAUSE YOUR ARGUMENT
IS AND I WAS CONFUSED WHEN YOU SAID CPANJ IS ITSELF A POLITICAL SUBDIVISION. THAT'S NOT
THE CASE. THAT'S NOT THE ARGUMENT, IS IT. MS. THOMPSON: I THINK RITSZ PART
OF THE AURMENTD. ILESS THINK THAT CPANJ AS PUBLIC AGENCY SO I THINK THERE ARE OTHER WAYS
THAT GET THERE THAT ARE NOT JUST LIMIT ITTED. JUSTICE PATTERSON: : YOU GOT
TO TELL US WHAT YOU WANT US TO TAKE HERE. IS YOUR ARGUMENT THAT IT IS APRIL INSTRUMENT
ALTD OF POLITICAL SUBDIVISIONS OR IS IT YOUR ARGUMENT THAT CPANJ, YOONG IF THEY GO BY
CPANJ, I'M BEING TOLD THEY DO RSHGS IS CPANJ ITSELF A POLITICAL SUBDIVISION.
MS. THOMPSON: HEAR ME OUT. I DO BELIEVE THAT THE REASON WHY WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THIS
DIFFERENTLY IS BECAUSE THE PRECEDENT OF THIS COURT AND THE THE ONUS OF OF OPRA IS TO ELEVATE
THAT SUBSTANCE OVER THE FORM AND SO WHILE I KNOW THAT THERE IS A DEFINITION OBVIOUSLY
THAT IS VERY SPECIFIC AS TO THIS UNIT. JUSTICE PATTERSON: : SO VERRY SHOULD
WE HAVE SAID YEAH IT'S NOT A SUBDIVISION BUT SUBDIVISION MAY NOT BE TECHNICALLY IN IT
BUT LET'S JUST CALL IT BECAUSE IT'S IMPORTANT TO GET THAT INFORMATION. MS.
THOMPSON: VERRY HAD 3 SPRATD ENTITIES THAT WERE INVOLVED, 1 IS THAT CREATE ADD SEPARATE
CREATION WE DO NOT HAVE THAT DIVISION HERE. JUSTICE PATTERSON: : BUT WHEN
WE FIND THE VOLUNTEER FIRE DEPARTMENT OR FIRE -- I GUESS THE FIRE DEPARTMENT WAS A SUBDIVISION
OF A SUBDIVISION, UNDER YOUR THEORY WE SHOULD HAVE SAID WELL LOOK THE INFORMATION WE HAD
WAS IMPORTANT, WE SHOULD HAVE IT UNDER OPRA, WE GOT TO GO WITH FORM OVER SUBSTANCE. I
RESPECTFULLY SUGGEST VERRY IS THE THE OPPOSITE OF A DECISION THAT'S BASED ON SORT OF
NEBULOUS CON SEPTSDZ OF PURPOSE HERE. IT IS A TECHNICAL ISSUE AND I THINK THAT ITS FAIR
TO SAY THAT ALL OF THIS KORTDZ'S DECISIONS ON THE POLITICAL SUBDIVISION HAVE BEEN TECHNICAL.
IS IT IN OR IS IT OUT OF THE CATEGORY THAT THE LEGISLATURE HAS CHOSEN. YOU CAN ARGUE WITH
THE LETSCH I SAY LAY TOUR ABOUT WHETHER IT'S TOO NARROW BUT THAT'S WHAT OUR GOAL IS HERE.
MS. THOMPSON: THAT IS ALSO A LITTLE TRICKY WHEN WE'RE TALKING BECOME -- WE'RE
ALSO TOLD THAT THE LEGISLATIVE IMPERATIVE ISN'T NECESSARILY APPLICABLE TO WHAT THE ENTITY
RS. RIGHT? JUSTICE PATTERSON: : I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT.
MS. THOMPSON: IN A SENSE THAT IN BOTH FAIR SHARE AND IN RON COIT'S A PLUS FACTOR IN THAT
SENSE. IF THE LEGISLATURE CREATED AN ENTITY OR SAID YOU HAVE TO CREATE THIS ENTITY THAT'S
NOT SOMETHING THAT DEFINES WHETHER OR NOT IT FITS SQUARELY WITHIN THAT MANY.
JUSTICE PATTERSON: : ARE YOU SAYING THAT OUR DETERMINATION ON WHETHER IT FITS INTO THE
LANGUAGE THAT YOU'VE CITED HERE AS PART OF THE STATUTE IS JUST A PLUS FACTOR IF IT'S NOT
TECHNICALLY IN THAT LANGUAGE, ARE WE SUPPOSED TO SAY IS THERE SOME SORT OF BALANCING
TEST OR IS IT OUT OF OPRA. MS. THOMPSON: WELL, I JUST THINK WE HAVE TO LOOK
AT THE -- THIS IS A FACT SPECIFIC INQUIRY. IT IS A FACT SPECIFIC INQUIRY THAT HAS TO
ADD ADVANCE THE PURPOSE OF OPRA WHICH IS ALWAYS TO CREATE MORE KNOWLEDGE, TO CREATE MORE
ACCESS SOIS SO UNDER YOUR READING OF OWE PRASHGS ARE THE THE CHIEF POLICE ASSOCIATION,
THE WARDEN'S ASSOCIATION, THE SHERIFF'S ASSOCIATION ALL SUBJECT TO THE STATUTE.
MS. THOMPSON: THEY ARE NOT BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE THIS COMPLETE OVERLAP OF ENTITY.
THEY HAVE DIFFERENT FUNCTIONS. THEIR FUNDING IS NOT COMING ALL FROM THE STATE, THEY ARE
NOT JUST USING STATE RESOURCE DZ TO DO THEIR WORK. THAT IS JUST THE THE CASE HERE AND
THAT IS THE FACT SPECIFIC SITUATION THAT I THINK WE HAVE TO OPERATE FROM WHEN WE'RE TALKING
ABOUT CPANJ AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HOW IT IS IN THIS DIFFERENT SPACE WHEN IT COMES TO
BEING A POLITICAL SUBDIVISION BUT ILESS WANT TO SAY IT'S NOT JUST LIMITEDED TO THE POLITICAL
SUBDIVISION QUESTION BECAUSE CPANJ IS ALSO A PUBLIC AGENCY AND THAT'S SPECIFICALLY, VERY
SPECIFICALLY DEFINED UNDER OPRA. IT DEFINES A LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY AS A PUBLIC AGENCY
OR PART DETERMINED BY THE ATTORNEY GENERAL TO HAVE LAW ENFORCEMENT RESPONSIBILITIES AND
THE FIRST SENTENCE OF THE COUNT PROSECUTOR'S MANUAL IS THAT THE SKAUNTD PROSECUTOR IS THE
CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER IN HIS JURISDICTION. JUSTICE SOLOMON:
WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH CPANJ? IT HAS NO LAW ENFORCEMENT FUNCTIONS. ALL THE FUNCTIONS
OF CPANJ ARE NOT FUNCTIONS OF COUNTY PROSECUTOR OFFICES. MS. THOMPSON: BUT
THEY 100 PERCENT ARE. THAT'S ALL THAT CPANJ DOES. JUSTICE SOLOMON: WHAT FUNCTION
OF A COUNTY PROSECUTORS INVESTIGATING COUNTY CRIMES IS AKIN TO WHAT CPANJ AS AN ENTITY.
MS. THOMPSON: WELL AS C. JUSTICE SOLOMON: I KNOW WHAT THEY SAY.
I'M ASKING YOU. MS. THOMPSON: WELL IT'S FORWARDING THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE PROCESS
IN THE STAGE. JUSTICE SOLOMON: PROSECUTORS ARE CONSTITUTIONAL OFFICERS.
THEY HAVE A VERY SPECIFIC RESPONSIBILITIES. THOSE RESPONSIBILITIES ARE NOT IN ANY WAY
THE RESPONSIBILITIES OF CPANJ. THE PROSECUTORS DON'T DO ANY OF THE THINGS THAT CPANJ DOES
REGARDLESS IF IF THEY ARE THE MEMBERS. WHAT IS THE RELATIONSHIP? 1 INVESTIGATE AND
PROSECUTORS CASE AND PERFORMANCE THE ADMINISTRATE TIF FUNCTIONS RELATED TO THAT. CPA N.J.
DOES NONE OF THAT. MS. THOMPSON: CPANJ ARGUES BEFORE THIS COURT.
JUSTICE SOLOMON: CPANJ DOESN'T DO ANYTHING. THE ARGUMENT IS AMICUS. SO DO YOU. MS.
THOMPSON: YES BUT I'M NOT USING GOVERNMENT FUNDS TO DO IT. JUSTICE SOLOMON:
I UNDERSTAND. SO IS IT POLITICAL GOVERNMENT FUNDS THE KEY. MS. THOMPSON:
ABSOLUTELY BECAUSE IF YOUR USING GOVERNMENT STAFF, USING GOVERNMENT FUNDS TO DO THE WORK,
THEN HOW IS THAT A PRIVACY AGENCY? HOW IS THAT NOT FUNCTIONING TO FORWARD WHAT HAPPEN
CPA N.J.'S GOALS ARE WHICH ARE LAWEDIBLE AS I SAID EARLIER. JUSTICE SOLOMON:
SO THE ISSUE ITS NOT MRITD PUBLIC SUBDIVISIONS, BUT IT'S PUBLIC FUNDING. MS.
THOMPSON: THAT IS 1 OF THE MAJOR ISSUES. �� I WANT TO DRAW YOU BACK TO THE
LANGUAGE. YOU SAID THERE'S ANOTHER PART OF PUBLIC LANGUAGE YOU'RE RELYING UPON. TELL US
SPECIFICLY. MS. THOMPSON: FOR THE PUBLIC AGENCY QUESTION? �� PLEASE.
MS. THOMPSON: THAT IS THE DEFINITION OF OH, I'M SORRY, OF POLITICAL SUBDIVISION.
�� NO, NO,. YOU SAID THERE'S YET ANOTHER DEFINITION AND YOU BEGAN IN RESPONSE
TO JUSTICE PATERSON QUESTIONS MOMENTS AGO. WHAT WERE YOU RELYING UPON FOR THAT.
MS. THOMPSON: THAT WAS I THINK I WAS SPEAKING TO THE POLITICAL SUBDIVISION QUESTION IN
CITY OF NEW JERSEY V MARTIN. JUSTICE WAINER-APTER: I THINK IT WAS A DEFINITION
OF LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY PERHAPS AND YOU SAID LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY IS DEFINED AS A
SPECIFIC AGENCY AND HERE'S HOW. MS. THOMPSON: YES, IN OPRA R IT'S DEFINED
AS A PUBLIC AGENCY THAT'S DETERMINED BY THE ATTORNEY GENERAL TO HAVE LAW ENFORCEMENT
RESPONSIBILITIES. JUSTICE PATTERSON: : WHERE IS NA? WHERE DOES THE ATTORNEY
GENERAL SAY THAT CPANJ MAY PROSECUTOR A CRIME, MAY INVESTIGATE A CRIME SNM. MS.
THOMPSON: WELL, THEY SELF DEFINE AS DOING THAT WORK, THAT THAT IS THE WORK OF A LAW
ENFORCEMENT AGENCY AND SO THAT'S PART OF THEIR, AGAIN, THAT'S PART OF THEIR --
JUSTICE PATTERSON: : I DON'T THINK THEY REPRESENT THAT THEY PROSECUTE ANYBODY OR THEY
INVESTIGATE CRIMES, CPANJ. MS. THOMPSON: NO, THEY DON'T BUT AGAIN, WE CAN
NOT JUST AVOID THE FACT OF THIS COMPLETE SAMENESS OF IDENTITY BETWEEN THE 2 ORGANIZATIONS.
IT'S SHORTHAND, I THINK CPANJ FUNCTIONS AS SHORTHAND FOR THE STWUNTD COUNTY PROSECUTOR
DZ SO THE IF THE THE ATTORNEY GENERAL WANTS TO SUMMON THEM, LIKE THE BAT SIGNAL IS OF
OF CPANJ. IT IS NOT OF THE INDIVIDUAL COUNTY PROSECUTORS. JUSTICE WAINER-APTER:
SO THEN COULD CPANJ BE AN INSTRUMENTALITY FLT ATTORNEY GENERAL RATHER THAN THE INSTRUMENT
ALT OF THE COUNT PROSECUTORS. MS. THOMPSON: I DON'T BELIEVE SO BECAUSE THE
ATTORNEY GENERAL WHOSE NOT HERE, ALSO TELLINGLY, IS OVER AND SPRATD FROM THE COUNTY
PROSECUTORS OFFICES SO THE COUNTY PROSECUTORS WORK IN ALIGNMENT WITH THE ATTORNEY GENERAL
AND CPANJ IS CONTINUE OF BODY THAT MAKES THAT SOOEMLESS. JUSTICE WAINER-APTER:
CORRECT. THE WAY THAT YOU EXPLAIN THE FACTS IN THIS CASE RATHER THAT N THE ATTORNEY
INDIVIDUALLY CONTACTING THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S PROSECUTORS OFFICE THEY CONTACT THEM BY
CALLING THEM CPANJ. MS. THOMPSON: CORRECT. JUSTICE WAINER-APTER:
RATHER THAN -- CAN I TAKE US BACK A STEP? I KNOW THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF TALK ABOUT PUBLIC
AGENT AND I WHAT IS A PUBLIC AGENCY OR NOT BUT I DON'T SEE IN OPRA WHERE THE STATUTE SAYS
THIS ONLY APPLIES TO PUBLIC AGENCIES. I SEE A LOT OF PLACENESS OPRA WHERE IT SAYS WHAT
GOVERNMENT RECORDS ARE AND HOW THEY HAVE TO BE TURNED OVER AND A CUSTODIAN SHALL COMPLY
WITH A RESPECT TO EXAMINE A GOVERNMENT RECORD AND WHAT HAPPENS IF YOU'RE DENIED A GOVERNMENT
RECORD AND THEN I SEE THE DEFINITION OF GOVERNMENT RECORD BUT IT DOESN'T SAY THAT IT
IS ONLY THE RECORD CREATED BY A PUBLIC AGENCY. INSTEAD IT SAYS GOVERNMENT RECORD MEANS
ANY PAPER... THAT HAS BEEN MADE, MAINTAINED OR KEPT ON FILE IN THE COURSE OF HIS OR ITS
OFFICIAL BUSINESS BY ANY OFFICER OF THE STAIFTD OR ANY POLITICAL SUBDIVISION THEREOF OR
THAT HAS BEEN RECEIVED IN THE COURSE OF HIS OR HER OFFICIAL BUSINESS BY ANY SUCH OFFICER.
AND THAT'S IN FREFRN: 1-A 1-1 SO IF THERE WAS SOME SORT RF HOLDING THAT CPA
NJ WAS NOT A PUBLIC AGENCY BUT THAT ALL OF THE CPANJ PAGES WERE STILL GOVERNMENT RECORDS
BECAUSE THEY ARE ALL MADE, MAINTAINED OR KEPT ON FILE IN THE IN THE COURSE OF THE OFFICIAL
BUSINESS BY ANY OFFICER OF THE STATE OR ANY POLITICAL SUBDIVISION THEREOF OR RECEIVED
IN THE COURSE OF OFFICIAL BUSINESS BY ANY SUCH OFFICER, WHAT IS THE PRACTICAL SIGNIFICANCE
OF THAT FOR YOUR POSITION. MS. THOMPSON: I WANT TO MAKE SURE I UNDERSTAND
WHAT YOU'RE ASKING. WHAT IS THE PRACTICAL SIGNIFICANCE OF ALL DOCUMENTS REGARDLESS OF
KIND OF PROVIDENCE? WHAT DOES THAT HOLD FOR CPA N.J. JUSTICE WAINER-APTER:
NO MY QUESTION WAS MORE SINCE I DON'T SEE ANYPLACE IN OPRA WHERE IT SAYS ONLY
GOVERNMENT RECORDS MAINTAINED BY A PUBLIC AGENCY SHALL BE OBTAINED. INSTEAD IT HAS THAT
WHOLE DEFINITION OF OF GOVERNMENT RECORD THAT TALKS ABOUT A STATE, ANY OFFICER OF THE
STATE OR ANY POLITICAL SUBDIVISION THEREOF, ANYTHING THAT SUCH A PERSON HAS OR MAINTAINS
IS A GOVERNMENT RECORD. I THINK EVERYONE GREED,, COUNTY PROSECUTORS ARE EITHER OFFICERS
OF THE STATE OR OOFRSD OF THE POLITICAL SUBDIVISION THEREOF. IT HAS AN AND 9 WHO
WORKS IN A COUNTY PROSECUTOR OFFICE IS ALSO AN OFFICER OF THE STATE OR AN OFFICER OF THE
POLITICAL SUBDIVISION THEREOF, AGAIN, BECAUSE OF THE WORD OR SO IF THEY ARE MAKING THESE
PAPERS OR OBTAINING THESE PAGES IN THE COURSE OF THEIR OFFICIAL DUTIES BECAUSE THEY DON'T
HAVE ANY ABILITY TO USE STATE RESOURCE DZ TO ENGAGE IN ANY PRIVATE DUTIES, THEY CAN'T
REPRESENT, FOR EXAMPLE, PRIVATE CLIENTS WHILE WORKING AS AN ASSISTANT PROSECUTOR OR THE
INTERESTS OF A PRIVATE ORGANIZATION WHILE WORKING AS AN ASSISTANT PROSECUTOR, WHY DOES
IT MANAGE IF CPANJ ITSELF IS TERMED AS A PUBLIC AGENCY IN TERMS OF YOU GETTING THE REKTDZ
UNDER OPRA. MS. THOMPSON: I DON'T KNOW THAT IT MATTERS. I THINK THAT WHAT
WIDZ KNOW IS THAT THERE ARE MEETING NOTES THAT ARE TAKEN AND PASSED ON TO THE ATTORNEY
GENERAL SO MAYBE. JUSTICE WAINER-APTER: BY COUNTY PROSECUTOR DZ OR
ASSISTANT PROSECUTORS. MS. THOMPSON: YES AS THROUGH. JUSTICE
WAINER-APTER: IN THE COURSE OF THEIR OFFICIAL DUTIES. MS. THOMPSON: YES.
JUSTICE PATTERSON: : IS THE ACLU TAKING THE THE POSITION HERE BECAUSE I'M
LOOKING AT YOUR BRIEF, IS THE ACLU TAKING THE POSITION HERE THAT OPRA APPLIES TO AGENCIES
THAT ARE NOT PUBLIC AGENCY, ENTITIESES THAT ARE NOT PUBLIC AGENCIES. MS. THOMPSON:
NO. MR. PLAINTIFF'S ATTORNEY:^. JUSTICE PATTERSON: : BECAUSE THAT'S
NO R. JUSTICE PIERRE-LOUIS: TO ME AND YOUR BRIEF IS SAYING THAT'S A PUBLIC
AGENCY AND THAT'S WHAT'S REQUIRED TO GET IT WITHIN OPRA WHICH IS KINTD I HAPPEN TO HAVE
VERRY HERE WHAT THE COURT HATS HELD ON MANY OCCASIONS CERTAINLY HELD THAT OPRA APPLIES
TO PUBLIC AGENCIES. MS. THOMPSON: YES. JUSTICE PATTERSON: : ARE
YOU. MS. THOMPSON: I'M NOT DISPUTING THAT AT ALL. I BELIEVE OPRA ABSOLUTELY
BELONGS TO PUBLIC AGENCIES. BUT I DO NOT -- IT'S NOT ANY WIDER THAN THAT. 100 PERCENT
IT'S NOT WIDER THAN THAT. JUSTICE FASCIALE: I THINK YOU ARE SAYING THAT LACK
OF A STATUTE TRI CREATION IS NOT DISPOSITIVE AND YOU POINT TO FAIR SHARE HOUSING.
MS. THOMPSON: THAT'S CORRECT. JUSTICE SOLOMON: EXCEPT THE LEAGUE IS A CREATURE
OF STATUTE. THE STATUTE ENABLES IT, AUTHORIZES IT. THE LEAGUE OF OF MUNICIPALITIES.
MS. THOMPSON: YES, AND THE LEAGUE IN THE LEAGUE THEY SAID THIS IS A FACTOR
THAT WE MUST CONSIDER BECAUSE IT WAS AUTHORIZED BY THE LETSCH I SAY LAY TOUR THAT GOES
EVEN FURTHER TO SHOW THAT IT IS A PUBLIC AGENCY BUT IF THAT'S NOT TRUE IN OTHER CIRCUMSTANCES
THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT'S NOT A PUBLIC AGENCY. JUSTICE SOLOMON: NOT IN
EVERY CIRCUMSTANCE BUT WHEN YOU'RE TALK ABOUT THIS CIRCUMSTANCE, IT'S NOT -- IT MAY BE
DISPOSITIVE. ISN'T IT. MS. THOMPSON: WELL IT WOULD BE IF IT EXISTED BUT BECAUSE
IT'S NOT THE TRUTH HERE, I DON'T THINK IT'S RELEVANT AND AGAIN, WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
SOMETHING SO SPECIFIC AND SO UNIQUE THAT I THINK WE CAN NOT LOOK AWAY FROM THAT. OF THERE'S
NO OTHER -- THE CLERKS ASSOCIATION, TO FOR INSTANCE, THEY HIRED AN OUTSIDE LAWYER TO
WRITE THEIR BRIEFS HERE, SO THEY ARE ALREADY DISTINGUISHED FROM WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH THE
COUNTY PROSECUTORS ASSOCIATION. JUSTICE SOLOMON: BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT
LAWYERS. MS. THOMPSON: RIGHT. BUT THEY ARE NOT USING MUNICIPAL LAWYERS TO WRITE
THEIR BRIEFS. THEY HAVE HIRED A PRIVATE AGENCY TO DO SO. JUSTICE PATTERSON: :
IS THERE ANY CASE MAKING THAT DISTINCTION AS TO WHOSE REPRESENTING -- I MEAN IF WE WERE
TO INQUIRE INTO WHO'S THIS LAWYER, HOW DID YOU HIRE HIM, WHOSE PAYING HIM AND ALL THAT,
THAT'S GOING INTO PRIVILEGED AREAS. MS. THOMPSON: THE POINT IS NOT HOW PEOPLE
GET THE REPRESENTATION. THE POINT IS WHERE THE REPRESENTATION IS COMING FROM AND IS THE
FACT THAT IT IS THE GOVERNMENT AND IT IS THE ASSISTANT PROSECUTORS THAT ARE DOING THE
WORK OF CPANJ. IN ANY OTHER CONTEXT THAT WOULD BE AN ETHICAL VIOLATION RFRMENT.
JUSTICE PIERRE-LOUIS: AS YOU JUST NOTED, THE WORK OF THE PROSECUTORS IN THIS STATES LAW
ENFORCEMENT. MS. THOMPSON: YES. ASSOCIATE JUSTICE FABIANA PIERRE-LOUIS:
JUSTICE PIERRE-LOUIS: TO PROSECUTOR MATTERS OF CRIMINAL VIOLATIONS AS OPPOSED
TO HANDLING MATTERS THAT INVOLVE CIVIL LITIGATION. I MEAN ASIDE FROM MAYBE CIVIL
FORFEITURE, MATTERS THAT MIGHTING CONNECTEDED TO ANY CRIMINAL PROSECUTION, IT'S NOT USUALLY
THE CASE THAT ASSISTANT PROSECUTORS ARE THE ATTORNEYS OF RECORD ON CIVIL LITIGATION
MATTERS. MS. THOMPSON: THAT'S ABSOLUTELY CORRECT AND AS JUSTICE WEINER APP
TER NOTED THERE'S STACHTSDZ THAT NOTED THAT ASSISTANT PROSECUTORS CANNOT WORK ON THE
PRIVATE MATTERS SUCH AS THIS. JUSTICE WAINER-APTER: SO FOR EXAMPLE, AN APRIL
COULD NOT IN THEIR INDIVIDUAL CAPACITY CLOOZ TO REPRESENT THEIR FRIEND IN A DIVORCE MATTER,
CORRECT, BECAUSE IN ORDER TO ACCEPT RTD POSITION OF AN ASSISTANT PROSECUTOR THEY HAVE
TO AGREE THAT THEY ARE ONLY REPRESENTING THE GOVERNMENT AS A LAWYER. MS.
THOMPSON: THAT'S CORRECT. JUSTICE WAINER-APTER: SO WHEN THEY ARE REPRESENTING
CPANJ, ISN'T THAT THEIR OWN ACKNOWLEDGMENT THAT CPANJ IS SOMEHOW A CORRECT USE OF GOVERNMENT
RESOURCES. MS. THOMPSON: BECAUSE IT'S A GOVERNMENT AGENCY -- OR IT'S AN
INSTRUMENTALITY AND THAT'S EXACTLY THE DIFFERENCE THAT IS SEPARATING OUT THE CPA N.J.
JUSTICE PATTERSON: : IT'S AN INSTRUMENTALITY OF THE PROSECUTORS.
MS. THOMPSON: YES SNOOVM SO I'M SORRY, TO BE A BROKEN RECORD BUT WHY AREN'T WE BACK TO THE
QUESTION OF WHETHER PROSECUTOR DZ ARE POLITICAL SUBDIVISIONS OR NOT AND I'M NOT SUGGESTING
WHETHER IT'S GOOD, BAD OR INDIFFERENT THAT THE LETSCH I SAY LAY TOURS CHOSEN TO PICK OUT
THAT TERM AS THE CORE OF THE DEFINITION BUT THEY HAVE. MS. THOMPSON: AND I
UNDERSTAND THAT AND I THINK WE HAVE TO RECOGNIZE THAT WHEN WE MOVED FROM THE RIGHT TO KNOW
LAW INTO OPRA THE LEGISLATURE BROADENS THAT DEFINITION DRAMATICALLY. THEY ADDED THIS
INSTRUMENT ALTD LANGUAGE. THEY ADD THE POLITICAL SUBDIVISION LANGUAGE. THEY VERY SPECIFICALLY
ENSURED THAT THAT DEFINITION WAS GOING TO DRAG IN THE LARGEST NUMBER OF ENTITIES POSSIBLE
BECAUSE, AGAIN. JUSTICE PATTERSON: : RESPECTFULLY, I DON'T THINK IT'S THE
LARGEST NUMBER OF ENTITIES POSSIBLE. THE LEGISLATURE EXCEPTED THE LEGISLATURE,
CORRECT. MS. THOMPSON: CORRECT, YES. JUSTICE PATTERSON: : SO THEY ARE
NOT OUT THERE LOOKING FOR, LET'S PUT EVERYTHING UNDER THE YOU BRICK OF OPRA HERE. THEY WERE
DOING SOME SELECTION AND WE CAN FIND CLUES IN THE PERHAPS IN THE LEGISLATIVE HISTORY HERE
BUT HAVING BEEN ON MANY MANY OPRA CASES, THIS IS THE FIRST 1 THAT SOMEBODY HAS ARGUED
DON'T WORRY TOO MUCH ABOUT OF DEFINITION IS BECAUSE WE'RE LOOKING AT THE OVERALL
PRINCIPLES TO BE PROTECTED HERE. MS. THOMPSON: BUT IT'S NOT JUST TO OVERLOOK
AND TO SAY OH, POOH-POOH, IT DOESN'T MATTER AT ALL BUT WHEN WE LOOK AT IT WITH THE SPE
CIFICITY THAT EVERYTHING WITHIN THE COUNTY PROSECUTOR'S OFFICE IS ENTIRELY DEPENDENT ON
GOVERNMENT RESOURCES. JUSTICE PATTERSON: : RESPECTFULLY VERRY, IN VERRY,
EVERYTHING ABOUT THAT VOLUNTEER FIRE SQUAD, WHATEVER THEY WERE, I'M USING THE WRONG
TERMINOLOGY WAS DEPENDENT UPON THE ENTITY THAT HAD CREATED IT. MS. THOMPSON:
BUT THE VOLUNTEERS AND THE VOLUNTEER FIRE SQUAD WERE NOT INN DIS VISZIBLE FROM THE FIRE
DEPARTMENT ITSELF. THEY WERE DIFFERENT PEOPLE. JUSTICE PATTERSON: : THE COURT
FOUND THAT THEY WERE AN INSTRUMENTALITY OF AN INSTRUMENT. MS. THOMPSON: BUT
WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE SAME SNOOVM THERM CONTROLLED BY THEM. ETC. YOU ARE SAYING THAT
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS CPANJ THAT'S SEPARATE FROM THE INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE ON ITS BOARD.
MS. THOMPSON: NO BECAUSE IT WOULD NOT COMBIFTD IF IT WEREN'T FOR THE COUNTY
OFFICERS. JUSTICE WAINER-APTER: CORRECT IT HAS NO INDEPENDENT STAFF, INTO
NO. JUSTICE WAINER-APTER: IT HAS NO OFFICE SPACE. MS. THOMPSON:
IT DOES NOT. JUSTICE WAINER-APTER: IT EXISTS ONLY BECAUSE OF THE COUNTY RESOURCES
THAT THEY ARE PUTTING INTO IT. MS. THOMPSON: THESHG. JUSTICE
WAINER-APTER: TO TAKE IT BACK 1 MORE STEP, WOULD THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS CPANJ. IS A
COUNTY PRARS SUBJECT TO OPRA. MS. THOMPSON: YES, THEY ARE AND OF.
JUSTICE WAINER-APTER: SO WHERE DO THEY FIT UNDER THE DEFINITION OF A PUBLIC AGENCY.
MS. THOMPSON: THE COUNTY PROSECUTORS. MS. THOMPSON: CORRECT. MS.
THOMPSON: I BELIEVE THAT THEY ARE A PUBLIC AGENCY. MS. THOMPSON: GREED. HOW,
WHERE DO I FIND THAT IN THE STATUTE. JUSTICE PATTERSON: : THE INSTRUMENTALITIES
OF A POLITICAL SUBDIVISION. MS. THOMPSON: THE COUNTY PROSECUTOR OFFICES NO,
THE COUNTY PROSECUTORS ARE A PUBLIC AGENCY. �� ARE THEY AN OFFICE IN THE EXECUTIVE
BRANCH. MS. THOMPSON: THEY ARE NOT BUT THEY ARE NOTLESS JUST LIMITED TO THE
COUNTY GOVERNMENT. JUSTICE WAINER-APTER: SO WHERE CAN WE FIND THEM IN
THE DIFFICULT NIGS BECAUSE AS JUSTICE PATTERSON POINTED OUT, EVERYONE CONCEDES THAT COUNTY
PROSECUTORS SHOULD BE SUBJECT TO OPRA IN THEORY BECAUSE WE KNOW THEY ARE PUBLIC AGENCY.
WHERE IN THE STATUTORY DEFINITION OF PUBLIC AGENCY, THE CHIEF SUGGESTED COULD THEY BE,
COULD THE COUNTY PROSECUTOR BE PART OF THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT IF IT'S A
SKONSZ TUGSZAL OFFICER THAT IS NOMINATED BY THE GOVERNOR? COULD IT BE PART AND IT EXISTS
TO ENFORCE THE THE LAWS, CAN IT BE PART OF THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH. MS. THOMPSON:
IT'S NOT OFFICIALLY NAMED THAT WAY. JUSTICE WAINER-APTER: WHAT IS IT OFFICIALLY
NAMED THE THE COUNT PROSECUTOR AOFFICE. IS IT OFFICIALLY NAMED A COUNTY INSTRUMENT ALTD?
NOT CPANJ, THE COUNT PROSECUTOR. MS. THOMPSON: PART OF THE YOU ARGUMENT IN
THE BRIEF THAT I THINK IS RELEVANT TO YOUR QUESTION. IF THEY ARE DOING ADMINISTRATE TIF
WORK, IF IT'S A QUESTION OF HIRING. THAT'S A LOCAL ENTITY, LIKE LOCAL UNIT. IF THEY ARE
DOING THE WORK OF LAW ENFORCEMENT THEY BE THEN IT BECOMES THE WORK OF THE STATE.
JUSTICE WAINER-APTER: AND THEN IT WOULD BE PART OF THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT
UNDER THE FIRST CLAUSE RF PUBLIC AGENCY. MS. THOMPSON: I THINK, YES, I THINK
THAT THAT IS A POSSIBLE INTERPRETATION. I DON'T KNOW THAT'S LAID OUT ANYWHERE IN OPRA.
I DON'T KNOW THAT THE LETSCH I SAY LAY TOUR HAS NAMED IT SUCH BUT I THINK THAT IS THE
SPACE THAT THEY DO OCCUPY. �� SO IN FOLLOWING UP ON JUSTICE WEINER QUESTIONS.
REVIEWS IT. GIVES IT TO A JUVENILE JUSTICE COORDINATOR AND THEY KEEP IT ON FILE IN THE
OFFICE AS PART OF THEIR OFFICIAL DUTIES. CAN YOU GET THAT THROUGH OPRA BY GOING DIRECTLY
TO THE COUNT PROSECUTOR'S OFFICE? MS. THOMPSON: IT COULD BE OPRAABLE BUT I
BELIEVE THE COUNTY PROSECUTORS COULD THEN EXERT A DIB RAHTIVE PRIVILEDGE OR SOME OTHER
EXCEPTION UNDER OPRA BUT WE COULD ASK FOR IT AND I DO BELIEVE THEY WOULD BE -- THEY WOULD HAVE
TO RESPOND TO THAT BECAUSE THAT IS A DOCUMENT THAT FALLS SQUARELY UNDER OPRA.
JUSTICE WAINER-APTER: AND THEN CPANJ WOULD BE ABLE TO EXERT ANY SIMILAR PRIVILEDGE AS
WELL, CORRECT. MS. THOMPSON: ABSOLUTELY. AS I BELIEVE THEY ARE A PUBLIC
AGENCY. I MEAN THEY ARE INSTRUMENTALITY. THEY ARE SUBJECT TO IT BUT THEY ARELESS SUBJECT
TO ALL OF THE EXEMPTIONS THAT GO ALONG WITH IT. JUSTICE WAINER-APTER: SO YOU CAN
ADVISE IT'S CONSUL TALTDTIVE OR DELIBERATIVE MATERIAL. JUSTICE PATTERSON: :
BUT WEREN'T YOU ANSWERING THAT IN THE AIF PIRMTIVE BECAUSE THE COUNT PROSECUTOR IS A
PUBLIC AGENCY. IT FITS INTO THE DEFINITION. MS. THOMPSON: YES. MS.
THOMPSON: JUSTICE WAINER-APTER: WHERE IN THE DEFINITION. DID WE EVER COME
BACK TO THIS. DID WE EVER FIND A SPOT AND SAY THIS IS HOW WE KNOW, JUST LOOKING AT THE
STATUTE. MS. THOMPSON: FOR ME IT LIES WITHIN THE DEFINITION OF LAW ENFORCEMENT
AGENCY. I THINK. JUSTICE WAINER-APTER: BUT WHERE IS THAT UNDER. MS.
THOMPSON: SPECIFICALLY IT'S IN RTD DEFINITION SECTION OF OPRA. IT'S NOT UNDERSTAND ANY
OF THE SUBPARTS. JUSTICE WAINER-APTER: BUT IF WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT
SOMETHING IS A PUBLIC AGENT AND I WE'RE TALKING ABOUT OPRA AS VERY TECHNICAL STATUTE AND
IT LAYS OUT THE DEFINITION OF PUBLIC AGENCY THEN BUT I'M SAYING WHERE WITHIN THE STATUTE
CAN WE HOOK THAT OR FIND THAT? MS. THOMPSON: TO FIND THE EXACT CITATION,
I'M GOING TO, IF YOU CAN GIVE ME A MOMENT TO. JUSTICE WAINER-APTER: OF COURSE.
MS. THOMPSON: TO FIND IT. JUSTICE WAINER-APTER: DOESN'T HAVE TO BE
NOW SNN LET ME LEND YOU A HAND ON THIS. DO YOU HAVE ANY OPPOSITION TO THE APPELLATE
DIVISION'S THOUGHT ABOUT IT BEING PART OF THE LEGISLATIVE BRANCH BASED ON THE FACT THAT
THERE'S AN ENABLING STATUTE WHICH OFFERS THE POWERS TO THE COUNTY PROSECUTOR?
MS. THOMPSON: I'M NOT SURE WHAT THE QUESTIONS. JUSTICE NORIEGA: DO YOU AGREE
THAT IT COULD FALL UNDER THE LEGISLATIVE BRANCH FACE BASED ON FACT THAT IT IS THE LEGISLATIVE
BRANCH THAT AFFORDS THE COUNTY PROSECUTOR ITS POWERS. MS. THOMPSON: YES, I
DON'T THINK IT'S LIMITED TO THE LEGISLATIVE BRANCH MIGHT BE THE WRINKLE THERE. ��
PROSECUTOR IS PART OF THE LEGISLATIVE BRANCH STOP THERE FOR A SECOND. MS. THOMPSON:
WELL NOT SQUARE FOR A SECOND BUT SOME OF THEIR POWERS ARE DEFINED AND LIMITEDED BY STATUTE
TRI REQUIREMENTS LIKE WE SAID EARLIER ABOUT THE ASSISTANT PROSECUTORS AND WHAT THEY CAN
AND CANNOT DO. THAT'S LAID OUT THROUGH LEGISLATIVE. JUSTICE SOLOMON:
WHAT LEGISLATIVE. �� I THINK YOU'RE GOING DOWN A DANGEROUS. JUSTICE
SOLOMON: WHAT LEGISLATIVE ENACTMENTS ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? MS. THOMPSON:
WELL, I'M THINKING SPECIFICALLY BIP NUCHSZ 2C: 18525.1 B.A. AND THAT IS, AGAIN, TALKING
ABOUT THE RESPONSIBLE IBLTDS AND DUTIES. JUSTICE SOLOMON: BUT THE LEGISLATURE
DOES THAT FOR CABINET OFFICERS, A MYRIAD OF PARTS OF GOVERNMENT OF THE THEY DON'T BECOME
PART OF THE LEGISLATIVE BRANCH BECAUSE THEY HAVE -- THE LEGISLATURE HAS IN ACCORDANCE
WITH ITS CONSTITUTIONAL ROLE ENABLED AN EXECUTIVE AGENCY TO DO SOMETHING. DOES IT?
MS. THOMPSON: NO. JUSTICE PATTERSON: : AND PLUS IF THEY ARE IN THE LEGISLATIVE
BRANCH AREN'T THEY OUT OF OPRA. MS. THOMPSON: YES, AS YOU SAID BEFORE. 100
PERCENT AS YOU SAID BEFORE. I MIGHT HAVE OVER -- I WAS TOO EAGER I THINK GRAB THE ROPE
THAT YOU THREW ME. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. BUT YOU'RE RIGHT, I THINK TOO MUCH. IT'S OVER
BROAD. JUSTICE PATTERSON: : AND I'M NOT SURE THE APPELLATE DIVISION FOUND
IT TO BE PART. I THINK THE APPELLATE DIVISION'S POINT IS THAT -- THERE'S AN ENABLING STATUTE
THAT PROVIDES THE LAW ENFORCEMENT POWERS TO THE PROSECUTORS. MS. THOMPSON:
YES, AND I ALSO THINK OPRA DEFINES THE LAW ENFORCEMENT STATUS AS A PUBLIC AGENCY STAUSZ.
JUSTICE SOLOMON: BUT THERE'S NO DOUBT PROSECUTORS ARE SUBJECT TO OWE PRACHL
THE THERE'S NO DOUBT THE AG IS SUBJECT TO OPRA. WHAT IS THE STATUTORY AUTHORITY UNDER
WHICH OPRA IS CREATED OR IS IT SIMPLY A MATTER OF ATTORNEY PROSECUTORS GETTING TOGETHER
LET'S HAVE THIS ASSOCIATION. OR MAYBE THE AG SAYING I DON'T WANT TO TALK TO ALL 21 OF
YOU. LET'S FORM AN ASSOCIATION. �� THAT'S NOT HOW IT IT HAPPENED.
JUSTICE SOLOMON: I ACTUALLY KNOW HOW IT IT HAPPENED. MS. THOMPSON: AND THAT
WOULD BE FINE. JUSTICE PATTERSON: : I DON'T KNOW HOW IT HAPPENED BUT I'M
INTERESTED. MS. THOMPSON: AND THAT MIGHT REQUIRE MORE DISCOVERY BUT I THINK
IT'S FINE THAT CPANJ EXISTS. JUSTICE SOLOMON: I DIDN'T SAY IT'S NOT FINE.
I'M JUST SAYING DOESN'T THE THE WAY IN WHICH IT IS CREATED HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH WHETHER
IT IS A PUBLIC ENTITY SUBJECT TO OPRA AS WAS FIND IN THE FIRE MENSZ ASSOCIATION CASE SHALL
AS WAS FOUND IN THE LEAGUE OF MUNIC PALTSDZ. MS. THOMPSON: IT HAS SOMETHING
TO DO WITH IT BUT IF IT USED THE THE GOVERNMENT RESOURCE DZ TO DO IT, THAT'S THE FLAW.
THAT'S THE PROBLEM THAT WE'RE STRUGGLING WITH. JUSTICE SOLOMON: I DON'T KNOW
THE ANSWER TO THIS AND MAYBE 1 OF YOUR ADVERSARIES DOES. WHETHER THE LEAGUE OF MUNIC
PALTSDZ USES ITS OWN FUNDS OR GOVERNMENT FUNDS OR THEIR FEES ARE DUES ARE PAID BY THE
MUNICIPALITY OR THE INDIVIDUAL. I DON'T KNOW. I MEAN ARE ANY OF THESE ENTITIES RSHG THE
FIRE MENS ASSOCIATION, TO THE EXTENT THAT THEY ARE VOLUNTEER, NOT VOLUNTEER, HOW ARE THEY
TRIBTDED, ALLOW ARE THEY FUNDED, I DON'T KNOW AND I DON'T KNOW IT'S EVER BEEN DISCUSSED
IN ANYBODY'S BRIEF. MS. THOMPSON: I KNOW THAT I BELIEVE FAIR SHARE 1 OF ISSUES
WAS THAT THE MAYOR WAS COMPLETELY IN CONTROL OF THE ORGANIZATION AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE
SEEING HERE. WE ALSO KNOW THAT NIFRM. JUSTICE SOLOMON: ISN'T THE AG IN COMPLETE
CONTROL OF THE ASSOCIATION. MS. THOMPSON: OF. JUSTICE SOLOMON:
THE THE ASSOCIATION. DON'T THEY MEET IN TRENTON IN THE WHOSE JUSTICE COMPLEX. DOESN'T
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL OR HIS REPRESENTATIVE APPEAR THE AT THOSE MEETINGS AND AREN'T A LOT
OF COMPLUGSS BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN THE ASSOCIATION AND THE ATTORNEY GENERAL.
MS. THOMPSON: IT IS BUT THE COUNTY PROSECUTORS ARE THE ONES WHO CALL THE MEETINGS BETWEEN
THEMSELVES. MS. THOMPSON: DO THEY. ASSOCIATE JUSTICE LEE A. SOLOMON:
ON TO SET THEIR OWN MEETINGS AND THEIR OWN STRUCTURES. JUSTICE SOLOMON: DO
THEY? IS THAT WHAT HAPPENS. MS. THOMPSON: THAT'S WHAT I KNOW FROM WHAT'S
AVAILABLE TO US. THERE'S PART OF THE OPRA REQUEST WAS TO FIND OUT A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT
THAT STRUCTURE. JUSTICE SOLOMON: HAS THAT REQUEST BEEN MADE TO THE ATTORNEY
GENERAL'S OFFICE? MS. THOMPSON: AN OPRA REQUEST TO THEM? JUSTICE
SOLOMON: YEAH. MS. THOMPSON: WE DID NOT OPRA THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE.
JUSTICE SOLOMON: OR THE INDIVIDUAL PROSECUTORS. MS. THOMPSON: WE
DID NOT OPRA INDIVIDUAL PROSECUTORS. ASSOCIATE JUSTICE LEE A. SOLOMON: BUT
YOU WOULD AGREE THAT THEY ARE ALL SUBJECT TO OPRA. MS. THOMPSON: YES.
JUSTICE WAINER-APTER: SO WHY DO YOU CARE THAT -- YOU SAID THAT THEY ARE THE THE SAME
SO JUST SEND THE SAME LETTER TO ALL 21 COUNTY PROSECUTOR'S OFFICES AND ASK FOR THE SAME
THING. MS. THOMPSON: BECAUSE I DON'T THINK THAT A GOVERNMENT, A 1 THAT'S BEING
HELD OUT AS A PRIVATE ENTITY SHOULD BE USING GOVERNMENT RESOURCE DZ TO DO DZ WORK.
JUSTICE WAINER-APTER: SO YOU'RE SAYING THAT CPANJ SHOULDN'T EXIST AT ALL. YOU JUST
SAID IT'S NOT A PRIVATE ENTITY. IT'S A PUBLIC ENTITY. SO MY QUESTIONS ASSUMING WE AGREE
WITH YOU. IT'S NOT A PUBLIC ENTITY. WHY WOULDN'T YOU JUST OPRA THE COUNTY PROSECUTOR'S
OFFICE RATHER THAN GO THROUGH ALL THIS LITIGATION. MS. THOMPSON: BECAUSE WELL
FIRST OF ALL, I DON'T THINK CPANJ IS A PRIVATE ENTITY. THAT'S HOW IT'S BEING HELD OUT.
THAT'S HOW WE ARE HAVING THIS DISCUSSION BUT AS A PUBLIC AGENCY THEY SHOULD NOT BE USING
PUBLIC RESOURCES. JUSTICE WAINER-APTER: AS A PUBLIC AGENCY THEY SHOULD
NOT BE USING PUBLIC RESOURCES. LET'S SAY WE AGREE WITH YOU THAT THEY ARE A PUBLIC AGENCY.
THEY ARE NOT A PRIVATE AGENT. THEY ARE ONLY USING PUBLIC FUNDS. THEIR ATTORNEYS ARE NOT
ALLOWED TO REPRESENT ANYONE BUT THE STATE OF NEW JERSEY. SO IT'S A PUBLIC AGENT SICHLT
MY QUESTION STILL REMAINS WHY DON'T YOU JUST OPRA THE INDIVIDUAL OFFICES TO GET EVERYTHING
THAT YOU WANT RATHER THAN LITIGATING THIS. MS. THOMPSON: BECAUSE CPANJ IS
HOLDING ITSELF OUT TO DO THIS WORK OF THE COUNTY PROSECUTORS OFFICES. JUSTICE
SOLOMON: BUT ISN'T CPANJ CREATED AS A PRIVATE NONPROFIT ENTITY. IT'S AS A SEPARATE ENTITY
FROM THE PROSECUTOR'S OFFICESES, IT'S A SPRATD PRIVATE NONPROFIT, IS IT NOT. I DON'T THINK
THERE WAS ANY DISPUTE ABOUT THAT. MS. THOMPSON: IT IS BUT EVERYTHING ABOUT
ITS FORM, EVERY SINGLE THING ABOUT ITS FORM IS INN DID I VISZIBLE FROM THE COUNT PROSECUTOR
DZ. JUSTICE SOLOMON: EXCEPT FOR WHAT IT IS. MS. THOMPSON: AS IN THE
LEAGUE OF MUNIC PALTSDZ. JUSTICE SOLOMON: WHICH WAS ENABLED BY STATUTE. LE
GISLATURE STATUTE TRI ENACTMENT. MS. THOMPSON: RIGHT BUT WHICH NOT NECESSARY
TO FIND SOMETHING TO BE A PUBLIC AGENCY. JUSTICE SOLOMON: THAT'S WHAT YOU
SAY. WE HAVEN'T SAID THAT YET. MS. THOMPSON: BUT, HOLDING ITSELF OUT AS A
PRIVACY AGENCY THAT IS NOT SUBJECT TO OPEN PRA. JUSTICE SOLOMON: IT'S NOT
HOLDING ITSELF OUT. IT IS A PRIVATE NONPROFIT, CPANJ. I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY DISPUTE
ABOUT THAT. MS. THOMPSON: I THINK THAT'S OUR ENTIRE DISPUTE TODAY AND I DON'T
SEE HOW IT IT COULD HOLD ITSELF OUT TO BE A PRIVATE ENTITY WHEN IT IS NOT DOING ANYTHING.
IT IS USING ALL RESOURCES OF THE GOVERNMENT TO DO ITS WORK. JUSTICE PIERRE-LOUIS:
RIGHT THAT'S YOUR ARGUMENT. BEYOND WHAT YOU BELIEVE IS THE FACADE OF WE ARE A PRIVATE
NONPROFIT ENTITY WHEN YOU LOOK BEYOND THE TITLE AND THE FORM OF THE-THE OFFICIAL FORM
OF THE ORGANIZATION SHALL THE SUBSTANCE OF WHAT THE ORGANIZATION DOES AND THE MANNER IN
WHICH THEY DO THAT WORK IS ALL INDICATIVE OF AN ENTITY THAT IS PUBLIC IN EVERY WAY, SHAPE
OR FORM. THAT'S WHAT WE'RE ARGUING. I DON'T THINK ANYBODY DISPUTES THAT CPA **REPORTER'S
NOTE** J ITS INCORPORATED AS A NONPROFIT PRIVATE ENTITY BUT THE ISSUE IS WHETHER THAT'S
ACTUALLY WHAT IS GOING ON. MS. THOMPSON: RIGHT, AND I WOULD SAY THAT IT IS
NOT -- IT CANNOT HOLD ITSELF OUT AS A PRIVATE AGENCY BECAUSE OF THOSE, THE REALITIES AND
THE COMPLEX IT'S OF THE FACTS OF WHO CONTROLS IT, HOW IT WAS CREATED, AND THE FUNDS THAT
IT GETS. JUSTICE WAINER-APTER: TO TAKE IT 1 STEP FURTHER IF A COUNTY
PROSECUTOR'S OFFICE TRIED TO INCORPORATE ITSELF AS A PRIVATE AGENCY AND STILL DID THE SAME
EXACT WORK OF THE COUNTY PROSECUTOR'S OFFICE, USING THE SAME FUNDS, USING THE SAME PUBLIC
FUNDING, SAME WORK, EVERYTHING ELSE EXACTLY THE SAME, SAME EMPLOYEES, REPRESENTING THE
STATE AND COURT, WOULD THAT MATTER AND WOULD THE COUNT PROSECUTOR'S OFFICE ALL OF A SUDDEN
NO LONGER BE A PUBLIC AGENCY BECAUSE IT HAD INCORPORATED ITSELF AS A PRIVATE NONPROFIT?
MS. THOMPSON: THAT'S A PRETTY -- IT'S AN EXTREME EXAMPLE BUT THAT WOULD MAKE
IT WORK NO LONGER WORK OF THE PEOPLE, WOULD NO LONGER BE REPRESENTING THE JUSTICE SYSTEM
IF IT MADE ITSELF INTO A PRIVATE ENTITY FOR HIRE, RIGHT? I THINK MAYBE A BETTER ANALOGY
TO THAT POINT IS WHAT IF THE THE GOVERNOR'S CABINET DECIDED TO CREATE THE GOVERNOR'S CAN
NET ASSOCIATION. JUSTICE PATTERSON: : DON'T GIVE ANYBODY ANY IDEAS. MS.
THOMPSON: AND THEIR MISSION WAS TO CREATE BETTER RELATIONSHIPS WITH THE GOVERNOR AND THE
EXECUTIVE DEPTSDZ AND THEY USED ALL OF THEIR STAFF TO DO THAT WORK AND THEY USED ALL OF
-- AGAIN THE XEROX MACHINES, THE LAPTOPS, THE PHONES, ALL OF IT. WOULD THAT BE ACCEPTABLE
AS A PRIVATE ENTITY. JUSTICE SOLOMON: ARE THEY CONSTITUTIONAL OFFICES AND
THEY SERVE AT WILL? THEY DON'T HAVE A TERM? OKAY. WE'RE GETTING INTO HYPOTHETICALS THAT
I GOT TO TELL YOU, THEY DON'T MAKE ANY SENSE AT ALL TO ME IN THE LIGHT OF CASES BEFORE
US. MAYBE IT'S JUST ME. I'M NOT AS SMART OF THESE OTHER GUYS. SO MAYBE IT'S JUST ME.
MAKES NO SENSE. �� MS. THOMPSON, IS THERE ANY OTHER ASPECT YOU WANTED TO RAISE
AS PART OF YOUR ARGUMENT. MS. THOMPSON: JUST THAT THERE IS A DUTY TO KEEP
-- WELL, LET ME PUT IT THIS WAY, THIS COURT HAS TALKED ABOUT THE EVILS OF A SECLUDED PROCESS
AND THE POINT OF OPRA IS TO COMBAT THAT AND TO MAKE SURE THAT KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THE FUNCTION
OF GOVERNMENT REMAINS WITHIN THE HANDS OF NEW JERSEYIANS. JUSTICE SOLOMON:
JUSTICE WEINER APP TER POINTED THIS OUT. TLDZ NOTHING PRIVATE ABOUT ANYTHING THAT YOU ARE
SEEKING. IT'S ALL AVAILABLE FROM THE AG'S OFFICE AND THE PROSECUTORS SO WHATEVER IT IS,
ANYTHING THAT MINUTES SHALL THE DISCUSSIONS, THE MEMOS, ALL THE PROSECUTORS HAVE THEM
AND THE AG HAS THEM. MS. THOMPSON: BUT THEY REFUSE TO GIVE THEM TO US.
JUSTICE WAINER-APTER: BUT YOU DIDN'T REQUEST THEM. �� DID YOU ASK.
MS. THOMPSON: CPANJ HAS REFUSED TODAY GIVE US. JUSTICE SOLOMON: I UNDERSTAND
BUT IT IS NOT AS IF THEY ARE NOT ACCESSIBLE TO THE PUBLIC. IT'S NOT AS IF IT'S NOT EXPOSED
TO THE SUNLIGHT. THEY ARE. �� MAY I ASK I ARE THERE MATERIALS THAT COUNTY
PROSECUTORS WOULD HAVE THAT -- LET ME ASK IT DIFFERENTLY. DOES CPANJ HAVE DOCUMENTS THAT
YOU WOULD SEEK THAT ARE NOT IN THE HANDS OF COUNTY PROSECUTORS? MS. THOMPSON:
IT IS UNCLEAR BUT 1 THING THAT WE ARE INTERESTED IN IS WHETHER OR NOT THERE ARE POLICIES
THAT CPANJ SETS FOR THE REST OF THE COUNTY PROSECUTORS THAT ARE DISTRIBUTED TO THEM OR
IF THERE'S YOU KNOW, MEETINGS THAT ARE HELD TO DISCUSS THOSE POLICIES AND TO CREATE THOSE
POLICIES AND WE RECOGNIZE THAT THAT MIGHT AGAIN BE UNDER 1 OF THE EXCEPTIONS VOISZ BUT
IF THEY ARE UNDER AN EXCEPTION FOR THE COUNTY PROSECUTOR, THEY WOULD BE AN UNDER AN
EXCEPTION FOR CPANJ IF IT WAS OPRA, AS WELL. MS. THOMPSON: BECAUSE THEY ARE
HOLDING THEMSELVES OUT AS PRIVATE. �� IF THEY FALL WITHIN 1 OF THE DELINEATED
EXCEPTIONS YOU'RE NOT GETTING THEM. MS. THOMPSON: RIGHT. �� MY
QUESTION IS FOR THOSE DOCUMENTS THAT DON'T FALL UNDER THOSE EXCEPTIONS, ARE WILL ANY THAT
EXIST ONLY WITHIN CPANJ AND NOT WITHIN THE COUNTY PROSECUTORS. MS. THOMPSON:
SOME OF THEM MIGHT BE FINANCIAL QUESTIONS THAT WE DON'T HAVE. JUSTICE PATTERSON: :
ISN'T THE THE WAY TO TEST THAT IS TO SEND OUT 21 OPRA REQUESTS FOR THE SAME DOCUMENTS
THAT YOU WERE ASKING FROM CPANJ. JUSTICE PATTERSON: : I LEARNED A NEW WORD
TODAY. I WANT TO PRACTICE IT. MS. THOMPSON: I FEEL THAT -- YOU'RE ASKING
US TO DO THE WORK OF THE 21 OFFICES, RIGHT, WHEN CPANJ IS ACTUALLY HOLDING ALL OF THAT
INFORMATION AS THE ENTITY, RIGHT, SO WHY SHOULDN'T WE BE ABLE TO APPROACH CPANJ AND
GET THAT INFORMATION FROM THEM RATHER THAN. �� WE'RE NOT ASKING YOU TO DO.
WE'RE WRESTLING WHAT IT IS THAT THE LEGISLATURE PUT IN THE STATUTE.